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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:43 pm 
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David,

Alan Crooked Beard...I'm surprised he didn't have his barber executed.

Phil,

Brunanburgh is generally considered to be the decisive battle, after which Athelstan proclaimed himself the King of All Britain. Of course, if Geoffrey of Monmouth is to be believed, he wasn't the first King of Britain. There's a whole list of 'em going back to the Bronze Age (although exactly how accurate that list is, and exactly what constituted Britain in those days, it's difficult to say). It's probably fair to say, however, that he was the first Saxon King of Blighty.

It should also be remembered, of course, that, though strictly speaking not a Christian (as Thorulf's burial demonstrates), Egil had been prime-signed before hand, allowing him to fight alongside the Saxons without political, or religious contention.

It's amazing how people's religious and political beliefs fly out of the window when one needs a bit of help beating up a few stroppy peasants.

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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Location: Garstang
But Eamont Bridge predates Brunanburh by 10 years?

"... King Athelstan took to the kingdom of Northumbria, and governed all the kings that were in this island: first, Hywel, King of West-Wales; and Constantine, King of the Scots; and Owain, King of Gwent; and Ealdred, the son of Ealdulf [Eadwulf], of Bamburgh. And with covenants and oaths they ratified their agreement in the place called Eamotum [Eamont Bridge, just south of Penrith], on the fourth day before the ides of July [12th July]; and renounced all idolatry, and afterwards returned in peace."


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Phil,

Guthfrith, or Gofraid if you prefer (Olaf's old man whatever the case), was still the Norse King of York until Athelstan ousted him in 927, which, theoretically, would then place Athelstan as the King of Britain at that date, I suppose. However, Olaf (Guthfrith's son...hence the surname of Guthfrithson) by rights should have inherited the York Kingship, so officially Athelstan wasn't actually the King of York at that point, even though he held the city. That's what led to the Battle of Brunanburgh in the first place if memory serves (which, come to think of it, suggests that where the battle was fought was a remote part of the York Kingdom that hadn't kowtowed to Athelstan, placing the Fylde firmly in the picture).

I suppose the reason why Brunanburgh is regarded as the deciding battle, is because Athelstan couldn't officially hold the title until Olaf Guthfrithson was defeated.

Possibly.

Don't ask me...I don't decide these matters.

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http://www.wyrearchaeology.blogspot.com


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:33 pm 
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Location: Garstang
wyrearchaeology wrote:
Phil,

The cuttings at the end of Wyre Lane are typically Roman (and would have still been in use in the tenth century, of course). The opposite cuttings are upsteam (or rather downsteam) a bit, towards Garstang. There's a video on Youtube somewhere of some burk in a landrover driving from one side to the other. The actual ford ran at an angle, presumably to avoid potholes and stuff.
.


I`ve been back to look at the cuttings. What I can`t understand is that both cuttings are virtually at right angles to the stream but, as you say, 20m apart. All schoolboys are (were) taught that Roman chariots only travelled in straight lines but they would have had two sharp turns to make in order to cross this ford. Why wouldn`t they have had the cuttings coming in at an angle to the stream so that the vehicles could go more or less straight across?


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:54 pm 
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Location: just outside the fort
Phil,
I'm with you on the straight across ford if there's any Roman connection, but where exactly is Broom hill on the photos here.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Location: Garstang
In the first photo, it`s 55mm up and 20mm in from the bottom left hand corner. Trees on one side & a right angle fence on the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Location: Garstang
Here`s a shot of Broom Hill and one of the exposed end. It`s noticeable that the river bed here is all large stones 12" to 24" across whereas elsewhere in the river the stones are much smaller, around 2" or 3". I don`t know why that should be but it makes it an ideal site to build a barrow!
Another look at the ford shows that the entry and exit are fully 30m apart which would necessitate two virtual right angle turns whilst in the river.Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Location: Garstang
It has been proposed that Brunanburh may have been fought around Garstang. In that case, where would this Roman camp and hill be?

"The Celtic and viking armies arrived at the scene of the combat first and established themselves in an old Roman camp north of the hill upon which the battle was to take place, and the English, coming later, collected their army in a second camp on the south side of the hill."
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/history_viking/055.php


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:02 pm 
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Sorry guys but as the 27th Great-Grandneice of Aethelstan and actually live in Wirral I want to lay claim to the Battle of Brunanburh taking place here!!! The story goes that it was at Brackenwood/Storeton area of Bebington (which is near to Bromborough, some say, translated from Brunanburh); the Vikings left via the Dee Estuary and out to the Irish Sea. Only teasing (but I am his 27th Great-Grandneice and I do live in Wirral)! A local group of enthusiasts is trying to set up a visitor's centre here in Wirral to educate visitors on the battle taking place here. Thingwall translates as "meeting place" in Viking (as in Tynwald on the Isle of Man); we have many Viking place names here.

I don't know too much about Anglo-Saxon history but am very interested to learn more, especially with my "royal" connections!!! I did read somewhere that Aethelstan was not a very nice person so perhaps I shouldn't be boasting too loudly about the connection!

Let me know if you want me to find out more about Wirral's connections to the battle. I have an article which appeared in a publication a couple of years ago. Although not sure how to go about scanning it and displaying it on your site.

Isabel


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:02 pm 
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Isabel,

The Battle of Brunaburh is one of those events that's been claimed by just about every location in Britain. This is because, as part of our mythology, it belongs to Britain as a nation and, by way of consequence, everyone who's British.

However, the Wyre is the only true location...as everybody in the Wyre knows. (The same goes for Setantiorum, Robin Hood and Camelot.)

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http://www.wyrearchaeology.blogspot.com


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:44 am 
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http://www.fyldehistorynetwork.co.uk/page29.html

This looks interesting :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:36 pm 
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Location: Preston
Hi Kandie

Mike Deakin sent me a preview of this paper and I'd like to think there's a lot to it as we often overlook the significance of place names.
The fact that the Bergerode merited recording on early maps hints at its importance as a safe harbour certainly a good landing place for invading forces?

Regarding Bourne Hill however, Wyre Archaeology has spent almost 10 years excavating there. In that time we've found a small amount of pottery including Roman, Iron Age and early mediaeval sherds and we did find some post/stake holes forming a circular feature. However most of the pots had probably found their way onto the hill through spreading of 'night soil' and we found no hearth or any other sign of habitation in our circular feature. Earthworks at the bottom of the hill once thought to be the remains of ramparts were almost certainly late 18 century land drainage/flood management features.

That isn't to say that there wasn't a settlement nearby. In fact the proximity to the river and the presence of even the few shards we have strongly suggest the existence of a settlement.

Have a look at www.wyrearchaeology.org.uk

The previous post (April 2010) is not related to the above site but we'd love Brian to get in touch again!

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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 7:33 pm 
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Hi Dave,

Are there any future plans for a dig on the site of the old hall?
I am thinking in terms of continuity of settlement sites, and the possibility of the hall being built over a much older structure ?


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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:06 am 
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Hi Kandie

That was the general conclusion we came to. We did hope to be able to investigate the area around the site of the old hall. We know that some possibly mediaeval archaeology underlies the later farmhouse but it would probably take more resources than we have to dig there. We also planned to dig in the area occupied by the farm's orchard but a pre-development survey revealed various hazards (pits etc left by chemical industry) and most of the area is now a pub and car park.

There are still some thoughts that we're not quite finished on Bourne but at the moment we have an ongoing dig at an old water mill.

You might like to look at https://www.academia.edu/12014596/The_Q ... ourne_Hill

Michael Deakin has some useful thoughts on Brunanburh.

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 Post subject: Re: Brunanburh - Any Further Thoughts?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:04 pm 
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With regard to the fording points not being opposite each other above.
There is a possible explanation for this in Deakin's article on Brunanburh.


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